I'd appreciate some input from the seasoned Discus enthusiasts out there - I'm sure there are plenty of you lurking around here.
With over 40 years of experience keeping aquarium and pond fish, my family and I aren't complete newbies to the hobby, despite being relatively new to Discus. I've been keeping aquariums since I was 10, and while I don't claim to be an expert, I've learned a thing or two along the way.
I've noticed a trend that's got me curious - people with closed systems, whether ponds or aquariums, who haven't introduced new fish in years, seem to be doing just fine. Then, they add some new fish, even after quarantining, and before long, the resident fish start getting sick and dying.
This got me thinking. Every year, we're exposed to new strains of the cold or flu, and it's up to our immune systems to fight them off. We either get sick or don't feel a thing, but either way, we build up a natural defense against the new bug. So, I have to ask: can the same thing happen to our Discus if we don't introduce new fish to our closed systems?
I've heard similar stories about pond fish and saltwater tanks. What are your thoughts on this?
Immunities
Re: Immunities
Re: Immunities
Think about it, when Europeans first arrived in the Americas, the native populations were decimated by diseases they'd never encountered before. Now, I'm wondering, in a closed system like our aquariums, can the foods we feed our Discus or even the water we change introduce new pathogens?
Think about it, when Europeans first arrived in the Americas, the native populations were decimated by diseases they'd never encountered before. Now, I'm wondering, in a closed system like our aquariums, can the foods we feed our Discus or even the water we change introduce new pathogens?
Re: Immunities
Re: Immunities
Originally posted by jade
When the white man migrated to the Americas all of the indigenous got sick and died. I will ask you in a closed system, such as the Americas were prior to the white devils, can the various foods that we feed these fish or the water we change transmit new sickness?
Jade brings up an excellent point. What I'm getting at is, even with a closed system, there's still potential for new sicknesses to be introduced. It's like you said, Jade - new foods, water changes, these can all be vectors for disease transmission.
Originally posted by jade
When the white man migrated to the Americas all of the indigenous got sick and died. I will ask you in a closed system, such as the Americas were prior to the white devils, can the various foods that we feed these fish or the water we change transmit new sickness?
Jade brings up an excellent point. What I'm getting at is, even with a closed system, there's still potential for new sicknesses to be introduced. It's like you said, Jade - new foods, water changes, these can all be vectors for disease transmission.
Re: Immunities
Re: Immunities
It's not a simple equation. Asymptomatic carriers can harbor pathogens for years without showing any symptoms. Then, suddenly, the pathogen takes hold and wreaks havoc.
Think about cancer - our bodies are constantly producing cancer cells, but our immune system usually keeps them in check. Occasionally, though, the immune system falters and the cancer cells get the upper hand.
There are likely specific reasons behind these phenomena, but for now, we're left to speculate.
It's not a simple equation. Asymptomatic carriers can harbor pathogens for years without showing any symptoms. Then, suddenly, the pathogen takes hold and wreaks havoc.
Think about cancer - our bodies are constantly producing cancer cells, but our immune system usually keeps them in check. Occasionally, though, the immune system falters and the cancer cells get the upper hand.
There are likely specific reasons behind these phenomena, but for now, we're left to speculate.
Re: Immunities
Re: Immunities
This discussion has really got me thinking. The points made earlier about immune systems are well-taken, and I think we're on the right track. One thing to consider, though, is the strength of the pathogen itself. Some of these microorganisms are just incredibly potent, and even a healthy immune system can be overwhelmed. It's a sobering thought, really - the potential for these kinds of events to affect all life forms is always there, and it's something we just have to live with.
This discussion has really got me thinking. The points made earlier about immune systems are well-taken, and I think we're on the right track. One thing to consider, though, is the strength of the pathogen itself. Some of these microorganisms are just incredibly potent, and even a healthy immune system can be overwhelmed. It's a sobering thought, really - the potential for these kinds of events to affect all life forms is always there, and it's something we just have to live with.
Re: Immunities
Re: Immunities
I'm shocked that someone would use this forum to peddle an unrelated product. It's completely off-topic and I'm not sure why it was allowed.
I'm shocked that someone would use this forum to peddle an unrelated product. It's completely off-topic and I'm not sure why it was allowed.
Re: Immunities
Re: Immunities
Can’t believe anyone would advertise an unrelated item like a pillow cover on this forum.
I'm with you, Pat. I think it was a spammer too. Anyway, I'm loving the pillow talk - who wouldn't love a comfy pillow?
Can’t believe anyone would advertise an unrelated item like a pillow cover on this forum.
I'm with you, Pat. I think it was a spammer too. Anyway, I'm loving the pillow talk - who wouldn't love a comfy pillow?
Re: Immunities
Re: Immunities
I rarely bring in new discus. When I do, they go into a separate grow-out tank in batches. My existing discus usually don't see new ones for over a year after they're settled in my fishroom. I stick to dry or frozen beefheart for food, and occasionally use frozen red worms - though I'm cautious with those due to the risk of disease transmission. This approach helps minimize the chance of introducing pathogens into my system.
However, even with these precautions, I still get sick discus from time to time. Given that they receive daily 100% water changes and top-notch food, it's clear that water quality isn't the issue. To stay on top of things, I always keep one or two quarantine tanks ready. The moment I suspect disease, the affected fish goes straight into quarantine.
This tells me that discus can fall ill even in a closed system.
I rarely bring in new discus. When I do, they go into a separate grow-out tank in batches. My existing discus usually don't see new ones for over a year after they're settled in my fishroom. I stick to dry or frozen beefheart for food, and occasionally use frozen red worms - though I'm cautious with those due to the risk of disease transmission. This approach helps minimize the chance of introducing pathogens into my system.
However, even with these precautions, I still get sick discus from time to time. Given that they receive daily 100% water changes and top-notch food, it's clear that water quality isn't the issue. To stay on top of things, I always keep one or two quarantine tanks ready. The moment I suspect disease, the affected fish goes straight into quarantine.
This tells me that discus can fall ill even in a closed system.
Re: Immunities
Re: Immunities
I've heard theories that once a marine fish recovers from marine ich, they're immune, but that makes them a possible asymptomatic carrier. This means they might not get ich again, but the fish they come into contact with are likely to contract it. This is the opposite of what we're discussing, but I think it's relevant. The issue isn't where the problem comes from, but rather that a fish with a weak immune defense is more susceptible.
I don't mix my fish, and I rarely try to cure or save a sick fish. They usually end up in the freezer, as I believe it's the most effective and safest solution for a large fish room. Certain bacteria like dropsy and columnaris can be particularly deadly, and even if you manage to cure the fish, introducing it to other fish can have disastrous consequences.
This makes me wonder if an asymptomatic fish might carry a stronger or more potent version of the infection. From my experience, if potassium permanganate doesn't work within a week, it's best to freeze the fish.
I've also experimented with introducing healthy fish from different spawns to my fry to help them build immunity to foreign bacteria. I'm not sure if it's effective, but I think there's value in socializing healthy fish. Keeping them separate, however, is still my preferred approach.
In my opinion, keeping fish in a 'sterile' environment isn't the best way to mix them. I've seen this approach lead to weakened immune systems.
I've heard theories that once a marine fish recovers from marine ich, they're immune, but that makes them a possible asymptomatic carrier. This means they might not get ich again, but the fish they come into contact with are likely to contract it. This is the opposite of what we're discussing, but I think it's relevant. The issue isn't where the problem comes from, but rather that a fish with a weak immune defense is more susceptible.
I don't mix my fish, and I rarely try to cure or save a sick fish. They usually end up in the freezer, as I believe it's the most effective and safest solution for a large fish room. Certain bacteria like dropsy and columnaris can be particularly deadly, and even if you manage to cure the fish, introducing it to other fish can have disastrous consequences.
This makes me wonder if an asymptomatic fish might carry a stronger or more potent version of the infection. From my experience, if potassium permanganate doesn't work within a week, it's best to freeze the fish.
I've also experimented with introducing healthy fish from different spawns to my fry to help them build immunity to foreign bacteria. I'm not sure if it's effective, but I think there's value in socializing healthy fish. Keeping them separate, however, is still my preferred approach.
In my opinion, keeping fish in a 'sterile' environment isn't the best way to mix them. I've seen this approach lead to weakened immune systems.
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